In Answer to Protecting the People Part 1

Saturday, October 28, 2006

Murk has said there are two groups that are fighting for the hearts of minds of the average person in the national political debate; one based on pure religion and one based on pure science.

This is based on the fallacy that there aren't a huge number, the majority as a matter of fact, of people with a science background who still have some degree of spiritual faith. And that they are not capable of looking at the world using logic while maintaining a compartment of their mind for the emotional buffer that belief in a higher power provides.

That's what you have been led to believe by the media, and popular culture, and by the Religious Right; that you can't have any faith and still be scientific in your thinking. That if you are a proponent of rationality and scientific literacy and secularism that you must be a cold logical unfeeling Vulcan.

Now if all your saying is that there are people on both isdes who are just as extreme, then I say that is about as interesting as staing the sky is blue. What matters is how much influence these two "groups" have relative to each other in shaping the debate.

Seriously Murk, how may scientists have you seen trying to convert us all to pure cold logic and discounting God in all things, other than the occasional and I mean occasional mass market book like that recent silly one by the otherwise brilliant Dawkins. You make the false equivocation that science advocates and religious advocates are the same. How many science lobbying groups are there that are trying to turn the world into a steel gray amalgam of numbers and facts?

Most science advocates don't try to destroy your faith in a higher power, they DO try and push agendas that are based on scientific research such as stem cell research, environmental awareness, and evolution. And they DO use their training to educate the public on what they know, not based on pure dogma but based on actual evidence they and others have worked hard to find. They aren't trying to destroy faith. There is no science based lobby in the government that is trying to get religion banned. Can you make the same claim of religious based lobby groups?

If you say scientists are trying to destroy region by advocating actions based on empirical evidence instead of blind emotion, then the same thing can be said about any group whose job it is to study facts and present a course of action that seems logical based on the facts. In other words; plumbers, accountants, financial advisors, doctors, exterminators, auto mechanics or any other respectable profession. They all are expected by you and everyone else to use their skills and knowledge to investigate a problem and then advise you on the appropriate course of action using empirical evidence instead of blind faith.

If your plumber, after spending an hour looking for the reason why your sink isn't working, comes up and just says "Well looks like you need to pray to God if you want that pipe unclogged", would you follow his advise, or tell him to take a hike and get a real plumber who will use his skills to find the real cause and solution?

If you are going to make a comparison, be honest when doing so. Just because you say two things are the same doesn't make them so.


Of course there are examples on internet discussions of people who push for a complete abandonment of relgion in approaching the world. It can be said that I am one such person. But a few cranky atheistic scientists do not equal a political movement. However, there is a very powerful and active religious based movement in the US and other parts of the world that have used their power to try and destroy logical debate and mold society into one of blind obedience based on nothing more than their particular brand of faith. Our own President has routinely ignored the scientific advisors in the EPA and the FDA and has also publicly put his weight behind teaching creationism to our children in the science classroom, all to appease the religious lobby.

And the tactics of some of those who push for faith based politics are very diiferent from secularists. The Judge who ruled against the creationists in PA has received death threats. How many scientists or advocates of secularism and science do you know are likely to make death threats against those who publicly disagree with them (other than that psychopath Dr. Mantodea)?

I know many scientists who go to church, and I know many atheists who don't know jack shit about science. The world in which a powerful group of Science Only advocates work feverishly to obliterate any trace of religious faith exists only in fiction. The problem we have is that their ISN'T a powerful counter to the Religious Right. If there was such a creature, then we would be in far batter shape. But the battle is decidedly lopsided right now.

Anti-scientific thought has been steadily growing the US for the last couple of decades. In the industrialized world our average citizense are currently only ahead of Turkey in the level of our scientific literacy.

23 comments:

The Angry Piper said...

What I wanna know is: when is Dr. Mantodea gonna put all this "science" behind him and accept Jesus Christ as his personal savior?


PS: CJO: sorry I missed your party, you old bastard. Oldie Hawn. Oldy Oldson. You old sonovabitch.

PPS: You're old.

PPPS: And gay.

PPPS: You're old and gay,like Rip Taylor and Elton John.

PPPPS: Sorry, Sir Elton John. And also Sir Ian McKellen, incidentally.

PPPPPS: Although I hesitate to include him, because although he's old and gay, he WAS fucking Gandalf AND Magneto, so that makes him cooler than anyone I'll ever know. You are not cool. You're just old and gay.

PPPPPPS: Love you.

Nada said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Nada said...

I'll forgive your absence from an important event in my life, I’m getting used to it, you neglectful bastard.


And I may be old, and occasionally quite gay (I was pretty happy last night at the party), but at least I don't have blood gushing from my nose.

Toyi said...

When wisdom is on your side, there is always a balance for everything. both parties are in good favor as longest you don't deal with its fanatics...is always hard to put in words were exactly you are (not on the extremes) so, that is all I can say.lol

Religios try to force it? yes they do
Science try to force it? yes they do

we don't need to be blind about both of them.

Take that, Turks!

Nada said...

Toyi, I contend that there is not such thing as an organized group that is trying to force science on you any less than there is an organized group of auto mechanics trying to force you to NOT put sand in your car's gas tank.

These “science extremists” you mention simply don’t exist in a meaningful sense, especially when used as a mythical rhetorical balance to the very real and effective religious fanatics we see and deal with every day.

Having “facts” forced on you should not be viewed the equal of having dogma forced on you.

Anonymous said...

Church laws are fallible because they're created by man.

I always say to religious types, why do they pick and choose what science they want to follow.

We all pick and choose what facts and beliefs we follow, scientific or religious. We are all biased and selective. The key, the thing that separates the normal person from the True Asshole (Copyright, AV, 2006) is the self reflection to recognize this.

The True Asshole thinks everything he thinks is true and the only truth and must be forced on everyone else to save them.

Christopher said...

Dude, grow up. My post was a joke. You obviously take offense when this is brought up. So, in a way, you are part of "that group".

Aren't you the same person that said that faith based groups are "stupid"?

I took neither side of the arguement. I merely stated the fact that being anti science or anti religion ist stupid.

And, I did it tongue and cheek.

And who was the first to take exception.

Christopher said...

So, when a priest tells you to pray to God to fix a problem, it's like listening to a dumb plumber?

You don't even see how biased you are.

What about plumber who can tell you everything about the fluid dynamics of water, and then leaves without fixing the pipes?

Christopher said...

I turn to you, oh science, in my misery, to help me carry on from day to day, despite the fact that you can do nothing besides make a TV for me or give me a pill!

Very inspiring, if I do say so myself.

The WoW war is back!

Nada said...

Murk, whether or not your posts are a joke is irrelevant because you switch back and forth so often the rest of us just don't bother trying to figure it out any more. We respond to your comments, as they are put forth, because they are no more real than your mustache.

I don't care if your post was a joke, and neither does anyone else. You said certain things and I felt it was a good chance to respond because whether or not YOU were joking your muse was a real sentiment that is expressed all the time.

And how am I offended? I chose to voice a counterpoint to your post. I find it interesting how as soon as anyone bothers to actually discuss a topic you take a position on you try to back away by saying “it was just a joke, grow up.” That’s a copout. And it’s getting old already.

I guess if the only viewers you want to attract are ones that like fart jokes and youtube videos, then that’s’ fine, but you SAY that you want all sorts of real discussions here, or were you just joking then too?

Tell you what, how about you just step aside and let those of us who actually want to discuss a topic do so, and if the only thing you have to contribute it personal attacks, you can just remain quiet. We don’t need you to egg us on Murk, really. You don’t need to keep poking everyone with a stick to keep the discussion going. We can do it just fine on our own.

And you missed the point of my plumber comparison. I’m not saying a priest who tells you to fix a problem is an idiot, I’m saying if the plumber says pray to God to fix your toilet, then he is an idiot. A priest who says pray to God to fix your toilet is also an idiot. But a smart priest will say call a plumber to fix your toilet. Because religion is not there to fix toilets, it isn’t there to cure diseases, and it isn’t there to get us to the moon. That isn’t what it’s for. The problem is there are many people who WANT religion to be used for everything, even things it is not qualified for.

But I know you understood that was my point, you could try and actually debate things honestly rather than purposely take things the wrong way.

And regarding your last comment about inspiration, once again you evade the point by pretending to not get it. We aren’t talking about inspiration. You are using the same bait and switch used by many others. That science is supposed to somehow make you feel all cozy and tucked in at night, in place of religion. It isn’t. It’s not there to inspire, though it can for some. It’s there to make life better, and to feed our curiosity about the universe. That’s why there are plenty of scientists who have faith in a higher power, because they get the emotional nourishment from their faith but don’t use it to try and explain how the world works. And that’s why you Mr. Faithful have no problem with using a computer to expound your ideas on the internet, two things science gave you.

Christopher said...

Fuck you.

I take neither side and you know it.

If I strep aside and let you and the other morons discuss, then we'd have a boring blog like yours. I'm anything but boring.

You get so upset at my childish antics. Why?

You want me to be more reasonable. Why?

What the fuck is your deal man?

Are you insane?

Post all you want and point out the obvious if you want.

Oh, and I've never posted a you tube video or put up a fart joke. In fact, I spoke out against you tube.

I provide a service. Keeping people like you off balance. It amuses people to see the smug get smugger while the clown throws pies.

Sincerely,

C.L.Owen.

Get it? Clowen? Clown? You!!!

Nada said...

That is the problem Murk, everyone knows you don't take a side. Your just a contrarian. Good for you. But seriously, can't you be a little more imaginative that just taking easy potshots designed to piss someone off?

The primary service you provide is this site.

Maybe you need to decide what the point is? Do you want to play a part in the debate other than as official mudslinger? Or is that what you want to do. If that's all you want to do, then that's fine. But you play this part as the court jester and then in the next breath fall out of character and try to have it both ways, saying you don’t mean any of it. That breaks the continuity. Keep the mustache on or take it off. Make up your mind.

And yes my blog is boring. It’s a personal webpage, geared towards close friends and family, not advertisers. Which is fine, since I’m not trying to make money off that. I’ll just keep making money working in the pharmaceutical industry. That’s a little more rewarding.

Toyi said...

Owen I think you don't understand it lol and I don't expect you to) well you might deal with outrageous religios every day but science isn't that obvious yet they cforce it (you don't see it because you love science and everything they say is like music to your ears), they try to force it yes they do, by trying to proof the bible is wrong, by trying to say that Chritians are stupid because they think the earth is flat (even if Christinas don't believe that)by saying that Christians are insecure because they have trust in a higher power to live day by day, their attitude to ask about "see something" is how science forces their side of the story, no they don't have an organized group why, cause they think they know everything, just a bunch of self proclamed gods they are....

Yes and you are right there are scientists that are christians and believe in God, great not too far in my group there is one and he is cool, see he is no fool.

Nada said...

Toyi, Proving the bible is wrong as taken literally? Yes I can believe that. But many many religious people also don't think the bible is to be taken literally. Even the Catholic church has come out and said genesis is not a literal story about creation.

And if you think they are always trying to prove the bible is wrong, do you really think it’s just because they just want to “prove the bible wrong” or do you think they are really trying to find the truth? Is searching for truth a bad thing? I know it can be annoying when people ask questions about something you hold important in your heart, but can you really blame them? And what is the important thing about the bible? Is it whether or not Jesus was in Jerusalem? Or is it what he said about being kind to your fellow people? Is it possible to disprove the actual messages in the bible even if you disprove the historical claims made in the texts?

And I’m really curious about where this “scientists think the are gods” idea comes from. Because you know, I have met hundreds of scientists over the years and the only ones I have ever seen that think they are gods or supermen are on TV.

It’s a Hollywood stereotype. Is there an example that proves the stereotype? Sure, jerks are jerks, and you can always find someone that fits your preconception. But it’s still a stereotype used to alienate people. I might add that this is a fairly modern phenomenon. It was the church and men of faith who were the primary pursuers of knowledge and science throughout history, and while they got in trouble with church officials once in a while for challenging dogma, they were still good Christians or Muslims. It has only been in the last century that this deep rift between the church and science had taken place.

Who tore that rift? Was it primarily the religious or the secularist, or both equally? That is most likely going to be answered based on which side of the rift you stand on.

Christopher said...

Pffft! Get a load of this guy. Okay, here. I'll spell it out for you:

Dr. Robert J. Murk makes an outrageous claim.

Some douche bag responds.

Dr. Murk flies off the handle.

Douchebag gets upset.

Dr. Murk says "Calm down! I was just joking!"

Classic passive aggressive behavior designed to piss people off. No harm done, except to you and spacefarmer.

I can play whatever part I like and contradict myself and you can't say shit about it.

Continuity? Life is not a script, jackass. My only service is to provide this site, eh? Well, you're the cockmouth that keeps reading it. There must be a reason.

Let me guess... you're a vampire.

Look, I'm not putting a gun to your head (yet). If you want to stop posting and responding because my act is getting old, go right ahead.

I hope you don't, but that's you're problem, not mine.

You've got something against me. Fine. Get in line. But don't for a second make yourself out to be a self styled intellectual billionaire pharmacist. If you were making that much money, you'd be a Republican.

And... this site makes me 0 dollars, so what is your point, asscocktitface?

Somebody give this guy an award so he can make another speech and sit down.

Nada said...

Alright.

You're right Murk. My skin is clearly too thin to suffer your wicked barbs. Since unlike you I am a real persona, and therefore I can't just say whatever I feel at the moment. I actually have some degree of repercussions ahead of me if I lose my cool and go off on a vitriolic diatribe against what amount to a cartoon character on the internet. What you say on the internet stays in the public eye for ever, so you'de best be careful what you choose to have associated with your name.

So I'll just bow out, since this place is, as you have said before, not meant for real people.

Yeah you're joking, or you're not. Doesn't matter. It’s tiresome and frankly not very much fun.

Christopher said...

You're a lousy fucking softball player Jack!

Toyi said...

Owen you missed again, the truth is not about finding it or proving it, is about believing it.

Tainted~Love said...

still lost ...better do some reading around here .... *grr*

 
 
 
 
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